Observations.

[caseih]

Agreed. @fxm could very easily have taken personal offense to dodicat's comment, but chose not to. Clearly the moderators are indeed *not* a hateful bunch!

I think FB is a fine compiler and language, and the forum here is a good and welcoming place in general. For those that enjoy using it, both the language and the forum will continue on for some time, even if the amount of activity diminishes. I recognize that FB is a niche language at this point, mostly used to support old BASIC programs on more modern OSes, or because of the sense of nostalgia. Kind of occupies a strange place between retro computing, which has a huge and enthusiastic community around it, and the modern world of operating systems and programming languages.

[speedfixer]

Or dodicat could have taken offense to fxm's comment.

Wow.

Was I not clear with the tone of my comment?

More of my opinion:

FB isn't niche: it just isn't popular or widely used.
Were it fit for *only* a narrow range of uses - THAT would be niche.

I love FB. It is far more flexible than most consider it to be.
Powerful. Compact. Fast. Portable.
The NEW code I have written (for myself) and the vast amounts of code written by others says NEW code is really where the interest lies.
Otherwise, why would anyone try to extend and improve it?

Nostalgia might have prompted me to look here (after rejecting others when looking for a language for my projects) but the many strengths of FB are the reasons why I am still here - 75k LOC later.

To me, FB is new, current, powerful.
I lament that one single person's opinion (Dykstra) will forever shackle any BASIC from the place it could hold as a more natural syntax and easily remembered codeword base language.


david

[D.J.Peters]

This lot of moderators are a hateful bunch

REALLY ?

[deltarho[1859]]

MrSwiss and deltarho[] have been bickering for years, they have been neither civil or polite with each other for ages, was it just a matter of who got the boot in first?

MrSwiss and I had a falling out some years back. coderJeff made it clear that if we 'started up' again, he would suspend both of us. For the last few years I have made a point of keeping out of the way of MrSwiss. For me what happened a few years ago was water under the bridge. MrSwiss' downfall was that he did not view it that way and persisted in antagonizing me at every opportunity. It became an obsession with him and not good for the forum.

Very few people know this but coderJeff and I communicated privately with regard Albert and I very nearly managed to bring Albert around, but in the end I failed.

This lot of moderators are a hateful bunch,

I have had private conversations with both coderJeff and immortis and don't see them in that light. I have been critical of the moderators, but for different reasons.

I am fairly easy going and have a 'live and let live' attitude but there is a line to be drawn and if I was a moderator there are some members on this forum who would wonder what the hell hit them.

I assume that he's an autist

Interesting observation, grindstone, because that had occurred to me as well and probably why I was starting to feel sorry for MrSwiss.

Yes, we should make allowances for 'crazy people', the phrase used by dodicat, but ultimately the well-being of the forum should take precedence. I believe that coderJeff and colleagues know this only too well and should be applauded, not vilified. Perception fascinates me. My perception of something may be very different to someone else's perception, and yet we are both looking at the same thing. With differing perceptions, even if our judgement process was the same we would probably have different judgements.

[dodicat]

Thank you for trying to get one valued forum member back deltarho[]
Obviously I am not going to set the world to rights here.
But your phrase (coderJeff and colleagues) should mean the whole forum and not a gang of four.
Imortis was voted in as a moderator a few years back after much deliberation within the forum, but the other two moderators were not, so the process was short circuited for some reason.
I really dislike elitism and cliques.
Thank you D.J.Peters for that one word retort, very cutting, but I like it.
I know it is only a tiny forum in a huge cyberspace, but it should tended to properly because some folk have been around it for many years, including Albert and MrSwiss.
You could be right Dafhi, I'll be 73 in a few days, I could be on the turn into the abyss.

[angros47]

I wonder... MrSwiss was banned temporarily or permanently?

Because I, too, had some arguments with him, but I recognize he also gave some useful contributes in the forum

[caseih]

Was I not clear with the tone of my comment?

You were, but I chose to believe my initial read was incorrect and give you the benefit of the doubt. There's no way fxm's comment was in any way ironic, tone deaf, or otherwise inappropriate. Kudos to fxm for reacting so well.

Nostalgia might have prompted me to look here (after rejecting others when looking for a language for my projects) but the many strengths of FB are the reasons why I am still here - 75k LOC later.

Well said.

I lament that one single person's opinion (Dykstra) will forever shackle any BASIC from the place it could hold as a more natural syntax and easily remembered codeword base language.

To be fair, the BASIC at the time was, compared to Pascal, extremely primitive and very limited and his observations of spaghetti code were well founded. Obviously Dijkstra's comments were obsolete in the mid 80s when structured BASICs became common.

[deltarho[1859]]

should mean the whole forum and not a gang of four.

I take it that you are advocating a referendum, as practised by democracies. Personally, I am against referendums on the basis that the 'great unwashed' are for the most part clueless. Our decision to stay or leave the EU should have been made, in my opinion, by our elected representatives allowed a free vote and not the population at large.

Longevity of membership should not be taken into consideration with regard to suspension. Why should a long-standing member be given more slack in their behaviour? A long-standing PowerBASIC member with the highest number of posts had been bad-mouthing people for years. He eventually got suspended for two years. Is he better behaved after his return? Yes, he is.

Does that mean that I would not object to Albert or MrSwiss being allowed back? At this time, my answer would be no. After twelve months or so, I may change my mind. However, I would allow them back 'under licence' so to speak - one foot wrong and out they go again.

I wonder... MrSwiss was banned temporarily or permanently?

coderJeff did not mention a term, so it is fair to assume permanency.

[caseih]

He did, however, mention that he had tried to speak privately with MrSwiss on several occasions in the recent past, but to no avail. This was not just a simple reaction to a bad post.

[coderJeff]

@dodicat, you are way off the mark. You haven't the foggiest about how much time I've spent thinking about Albert and MrSwiss. Or how many people I've involved trying to help them in some way. Or how the interests of the project are valued against interests or needs of a couple of individuals.
MrSwiss: I am fed up with his posts. Often the next several posts that follow are all about MrSwiss. Unfortunate because he is knowledgeable.
Albert: My last interaction: https://sourceforge.net/p/fbc/bugs/938/#2de9 - he didn't contact me.

[deltarho[1859]]

Or how the interests of the project are valued against interests or needs of a couple of individuals.

And on that note, I think that this thread should now be closed.

[TeeEmCee]

You are all too negative about the state of the community. Drama seems to be inevitable online, but this is still a great forum and a great project and there are a lot of very interesting people here.

[dafhi]

dodicat there's a chance you are spiritually sensitive. modern medicine might call it anxiety. I found out from a doc visit that I was very low on Vitamin B12, which causes irritability. Being a vegetarian, this did not surprise my .. well she's actually a Nurse Pracictioner .. i forget. Anyway I am not as low on B12 and I do notice a difference.

[speedfixer]

I don't think the moderators, generally or individually, are hateful. Not even fxm.
I do think some believe that a heavy hand is better than not.

Unless a comment is WAY out-of-bounds, it is a valid comment.
Unless it is illegal or completely distasteful, it should NEVER be deleted or edited by a moderator. Anyone in Europe can point at recent history to know the eventual consequences. I'm in America. Most people are happy, fat and blind and can't see what is coming.

Referendum or any other democratic advice: ok for the general, never for the specific.
Too much time killed. People start to take things personally.

Close a topic: only when it starts to get destructive or toxic. This is neither, yet.

This is where things get aired out.
We get to speak, hear replies, refine our message. And on rare occasion, change our minds.

Re: Albert: just a sad case. *I* spent a lot of time thinking about him. I'm certain many others did, also. We are here, he is there. Efforts were made. He had many multiple chances to engage with others and maybe invite some personal aid. We can't help. Sometimes no alternative is left but sequestering. That is life.

david

[deltarho[1859]]

I do think some believe that a heavy hand is better than not.

And there I am thinking that none of them believe that.

Close a topic: only when it starts to get destructive or toxic. This is neither, yet.

This thread went toxic at the end of the first post. Fortunately, it went uphill thereafter.

dodicat was an advocate of Albert. He was also an advocate of MrSwiss. So on reflection, I can understand why he was not best pleased at both of them being suspended. I am not going to question his judgement, but I reckon that his perception went haywire and I hope that it is not the same after subsequent comments.

What surprised me was that MrSwiss was given a 'whole life' tariff so to speak, especially after his first suspension of a paltry two weeks. Considering how hard I make myself out to be and my history with MrSwiss it mat surprise some that I would have suspended him for six months. Of course, several private conversations with MrSwiss and getting nowhere did not help. This is true with Albert as well — we weren't getting anywhere there either.