adding FreeBASIC to the TIOBE index

For other topics related to the FreeBASIC project or its community.
sancho3
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Re: adding FreeBASIC to the TIOBE index

Postby sancho3 » Dec 21, 2018 2:41

I have never heard of TIOBE before either. Is there a reason/benefit to be mentioned there?
I doubt that programmers or potential programmers are visiting the site to decide on a language.

On a side note lets look at the massive mistake made by MS when they dropped VB and switched to Dot Net. 20 years after they stopped supporting it, it still makes a top 20 list. And that is not even including VBA.
VB.net is on there as well, but it wouldn't have gotten there if they didn't offer it up for free.
VB has always been software you had to pay for (the free" learning edition" was extremely limited in functionality).
You can write a long list of deficiencies in VB6 but at the end of the day it was the most popular programming language ever, and by an even further margin the best selling.
With even the most modest little improvement to the language, VB7 would have raked in millions of dollars for MS.
anonymous1337
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Re: adding FreeBASIC to the TIOBE index

Postby anonymous1337 » Dec 21, 2018 4:56

I'm not sure if FreeBASIC was ever listed on this index, but I noticed it's no longer available on the Debian performance tests: https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debia ... marksgame/

FreeBASIC was never a huge competitor in any major mainstream space (as far as I'm aware). I think some niche spaces in education popped up mostly outside the USA.

One thing I will say is we have a very active and impassioned community. It is considerably impressive - in my opinion - that we received the exposure we did in the past considering our low rates of adoption and utility.

That deserves a pat on the back at the very least.
Boris the Old
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Re: adding FreeBASIC to the TIOBE index

Postby Boris the Old » Dec 21, 2018 7:11

I think this discussion is pointless, since the TIOBE ratings are meaningless.

About 80% of the world's code is written in COBOL, yet it is low on the TIOBE scale. It is a highly structured language that conforms to strict standards. It is also easy to use, so why would COBOL programmers need to search the internet for information?

It seems to me that the higher the ranking, the more useless is the language :-)

Rod
jj2007
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Re: adding FreeBASIC to the TIOBE index

Postby jj2007 » Dec 21, 2018 8:38

anonymous1337 wrote:One thing I will say is we have a very active and impassioned community. It is considerably impressive - in my opinion - that we received the exposure we did in the past considering our low rates of adoption and utility.

That deserves a pat on the back at the very least.
Absolutely! The fun factor is important ;-)

Boris the Old wrote:I think this discussion is pointless, since the TIOBE ratings are meaningless.
They are certainly debatable, as practically all ratings. One major point is indeed that languages that are efficient don't generate the discussions on which the index is based.

Boris the Old wrote:About 80% of the world's code is written in COBOL
Interesting, but not very plausible. Windows and MS Office are certainly not written in COBOL. Same for LibreOffice and many more popular applications. Where do you get that figure from?
Boris the Old
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Re: adding FreeBASIC to the TIOBE index

Postby Boris the Old » Dec 21, 2018 18:19

@jj2007

Actually, it's very plausible. Just search the net and you'll find all kinds of references to the dominance of COBOL.

https://blog.hackerrank.com/the-inevitable-return-of-cobol/

COBOL is a very powerful language that has all the modern stuff, such as OOP, and features that don't even exist in other languages. It's one of my main languages, and I can do things with it that FreeBASIC can't come close to doing. But what's more important is that anyone who knows COBOL can become very, very rich. :-)

Rod
lizard
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Re: adding FreeBASIC to the TIOBE index

Postby lizard » Dec 21, 2018 22:09

Boris the Old wrote:But what's more important is that anyone who knows COBOL can become very, very rich. :-)

Anyone who don't know COBOL can become rich, too. Ha Ha Ha...
dodicat
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Re: adding FreeBASIC to the TIOBE index

Postby dodicat » Dec 21, 2018 22:22

Boris said very very rich.
I have been googling COBOL and looking for a free complier.
I know that sounds cheapskate and it is, but I shall be following the money anyway.
Thank you Boris, you might see me on the COBOL forum anytime soon.
lizard
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Re: adding FreeBASIC to the TIOBE index

Postby lizard » Dec 21, 2018 22:31

I tried after a long time recently this one:

https://sourceforge.net/projects/open-cobol/

Works so far.
caseih
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Joined: Feb 26, 2007 5:32

Re: adding FreeBASIC to the TIOBE index

Postby caseih » Dec 22, 2018 1:28

jj2007 wrote:Interesting, but not very plausible. Windows and MS Office are certainly not written in COBOL. Same for LibreOffice and many more popular applications. Where do you get that figure from?
Windows may be wildly popular and highly visible in the PC space, but the areas where COBOL is heavily used are not visible to the public, such as running banks and core business data for many corporations. Many of these systems have been in continuous use for decades. Over these several decades, one can argue that far more code has been written in COBOL (with a percentage of it still in active use) than any other language. C++ is still a fairly young language compared to it.
jj2007
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Re: adding FreeBASIC to the TIOBE index

Postby jj2007 » Dec 22, 2018 3:19

Interesting article, Rod, thanks. If I was a young programmer and eager to earn a lot of money, I would consider COBOL. It's controversial, though - read the comments:
Cobol codebases are usually gigantic messes of spaghetti code, magic numbers and ad hoc additions. You would get scared at what programs and systems that process millions of dollars of your money daily look like when you open the hood.
Boris the Old
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Re: adding FreeBASIC to the TIOBE index

Postby Boris the Old » Dec 22, 2018 4:46

@jj2007

These sort of "controversial" comments have been going around for the past 60 years, but it never did dissuade businesses from using the language.

We COBOL programmers, happy in our work, just smile politely. ;-)

Rod
lizard
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Re: adding FreeBASIC to the TIOBE index

Postby lizard » Dec 22, 2018 5:45

Rod, i would believe your personal success comes from finding your profession in early age and always continuing there. For average programmers COBOL is almost useless.
Boris the Old
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Re: adding FreeBASIC to the TIOBE index

Postby Boris the Old » Dec 22, 2018 7:42

@lizard

There are no best or worst programming languages, just programming languages - each with its strengths and weaknesses. The trick to being a good programmer is using the correct language for the job. A "one language fits all" approach is not a good strategy. I use many languages in my work - but it's my strict adherence to coding standards and non-tricky code, that makes my code bug-free and easily maintained.

COBOL is useless for many applications, but it's perfect for most business operations, because that's what it was designed for. Whereas, other languages such as C, or even BASIC, might be entirely the wrong thing to use in that situation. And it's using the wrong language that is the cause of bugs and spaghetti code. It's like using a hammer to cut a piece of wood - it can be done but the result is sub-optimal.

That's why I think ranking languages is a bad idea. The implication is that the first ranked language is somehow superior and more desirable than the lesser ranked ones. Whereas, the most important attribute is whether it can do the job, not that it tops a popularity poll.

Rod
lizard
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Re: adding FreeBASIC to the TIOBE index

Postby lizard » Dec 22, 2018 8:22

@Rod

Tiobe is meant as a overview for average programmers to see what most people are using. But the cracks in this forum have more than average understanding of programming. Thats why they use FreeBASIC. FB combines the flexibility of the whole wide C world with the simplicity of BASIC. And as far i remember, in COBOL there is nothing you can't do with FB.
paul doe
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Re: adding FreeBASIC to the TIOBE index

Postby paul doe » Dec 22, 2018 11:06

Boris the Old wrote:COBOL is a very powerful language ...

:chokes on his coffee:
Boris the Old wrote:...that has all the modern[sic] stuff, such as OOP...

Well, if you consider something that's been around for almost 40 years modern, perhaps. Then again, OOP does make things like COBOL look modern, indeed.
Boris the Old wrote:..., and features that don't even exist in other languages.

Such as verbosity, for example.
Boris the Old wrote:It's one of my main languages, and I can do things with it that FreeBASIC can't come close to doing.

Interesting claim, but can you give a concrete example to back it? Bear in mind that the forum limit per post is 60.000 chars so you may need to split the COBOL code in several posts. For the 'Hello World' program, that is...
Boris the Old wrote:But what's more important is that anyone who knows COBOL can become very, very rich. :-)

Yes, there's no denying it. COBOL programmers tend to get paid to be brave in the attempt. There has been a frothing demand for COBOL programmers to (try their best) to maintain crufty code from a bygone era. Worse still, this crufty code is mission critical code!

But you know what's the scariest thought of them all? Thinking that all these code bases hadn't been migrated to another languages; not because it's too costly -money is the only thing that 'businesspeople' seem to be able to do right- or because 'there's no need to fix that which is not broken' (COBOL was broken right from the beginning), but because nobody has the slightest idea of how to untangle the billion-lines-of-code messes that have been created in such a poor language. The fact that COBOL is still being used (suffered is the correct word here) today isn't certainly encouraging news. Quite on the contrary. The implications are too scary to even consider.
Last edited by paul doe on Dec 22, 2018 14:49, edited 2 times in total.

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