FreeBASIC 1.08 Development

General discussion for topics related to the FreeBASIC project or its community.
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Knatterton
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Re: FreeBASIC 1.08 Development

Post by Knatterton »

Why not take FreeBASIC just as it is?

I like the concept of a small executable. All the other things can be included as needed. Compared with ancient BASIC Versions the most missing would be sound support. But today many boxes not even have a speaker and sound support requires speakers or headphones plugged in. And that is good this way. No need to have this annoying beep every time the pc fires up. That was computer stoneage.

So we can say, there is not much to improve. And keep in mind, the more complex things become, the more likely errors appear. This would be my point of view.
coderJeff
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Re: FreeBASIC 1.08 Development

Post by coderJeff »

Oh, golly. Where to start...?

I think I've been as candid as possible about the project, the compiler, the community, my attitudes, my goals, ... everything. I don't know if I can make my hopes and dreams for fbc any more transparent.

This thread was intended for fbc 1.08 development discussion. It exists because some fb users may find it interesting or helpful and may wish to participate in the development discussion.

I find that user's often have valid discussion points, but for some, the presentation is horrendous.

First, a little detour. Then I will answer caseih's question; which is on topic for the c++ stuff.
speedfixer
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Re: FreeBASIC 1.08 Development

Post by speedfixer »

@Juergen Kuelwein

I was not asking for a gui or framework, just the very basic tools that ANY modern gui needs: scalable fonts, minimum.

There are several fine *free* (as in no-entanglement license) libraries available.
They may not be the best or fastest, but more than good enough.

By media, I mean that there are several libraries for several picture formats, and I believe several libs for movie/animation sets available. The idea is to reduce the 'cost' to use what is expected in most full applications these days. By cost, I mean one does not have to:

1 - research available libraries to see
2 - which can be accessed by (not always) simple header translations and then
3 - learn how to properly setup that library so that
4 - you can learn what can be a very different syntax structure

All just to see an mpg or ogg, with sound.

Yes, much easier to just use someone else's software dedicated for that purpose.
If that's all you wanted, you wouldn't be reading this in a *programming language* forum.

MANY topics aren't for beginners. That hasn't stopped the very sophisticated graphics functions from being put into the fbgfx library. Who needs to know where the graphics buffer is?

I didn't for seven years. But now, my eyesight has weakened enough that I have to put scalable fonts into my libraries. I'm learning about RGBA. I NEVER thought I would have to do this. It will take less than week to complete.

Interprocess communications isn't for beginners. But I finished my libs for that 4 years ago. Now, my system manager program on the security server can talk to the data system and camera system and determine that I need to start the robot system to send the remote rollerball cameras to check a room that doesn't have a dedicated camera. Then I received a set of video streams to my cell phone that told me a child next door threw a ball in my window. I then told my security system to stand down.

The logic of all this is handled by FB. I would like to have more of the system in FB, but it doesn't handle some things well.

@Knatterton:
Why not take FreeBASIC just as it is?
Then ... should we thank the devs and send them home?

The possible addition of any sound system is exciting.
The work on expanding array features is even more exciting and enabling, in my mind.
And the incremental additional c or c++ like changes aren't changing the language, just enabling FB to do more, more easily.

Any syntax you know now isn't expected to change. You don't need to care about the changes if you don't want any.

I have no desire to alter the present course that several are working on to change FB. No Complaints about that.
I simply think that some features should be considered as being more attractive to pull more, younger enthusiasts in that can keep FB alive longer.

And I think discussions/efforts about video driver changes should start soon, before the rug is pulled out by Linux and Windows.
When either Vulcan or Wayland is considered mature, things will change very fast. Which major mobile phone maker will completely change first? How long will the desktops take after that? Only a trigger pull away.

david


(This series had, I think, expressed my sentiments more clearly than some of my other long-winded posts. And I think I can rest and I will try to not post any more of these too long exhortations. Oh, and this is NOT a complaint or plea to our developers or code submitters. More of the rest of the community should shout me down or otherwise put in their 2 cents worth. The same 5 or 6 are the only ones responding with opinions, and that bothers me. Though we are seeing visits in the multi hundreds for some reason, there really are only perhaps 20 that ever even ask questions, with fewer that reply.)
Last edited by speedfixer on Oct 19, 2019 7:15, edited 1 time in total.
coderJeff
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Re: FreeBASIC 1.08 Development

Post by coderJeff »

speedfixer wrote:If this/any next version doesn't have some features aimed toward new users or beginners - FB is dead.
Then I should save myself a prolonged departure and pack it up now. Because it is not possible for me, alone to implement all the frameworks and features you are speculating should be added. I can't finish everyone's incomplete coding efforts. And I make no apologies for that; I simply do not have enough free time for all that. So, if I allow any credibility to this statement, there's really no reason for me to continue, right?.

Nonsense.

What I can do is try to help some users become developers. How I do that, is by maintaining or improving features for advanced users that are making tools and libraries for new users or beginners.

By working on some of these advanced, sometimes hard to do, sometimes long time to implement, features targeted to advanced users, we are making fbc better for new users and beginners.

1) Imortis - port of fb rtlib from C to fb. Part of rtlib relies on C variadic functions. I added this feature earlier this year. Having the rtlib ported to fb may entice users to look at it, improve on it, fix bugs, etc.

2) José Roca - WinFBX - This is a massive framework for building windows applications and can be useful to new users and beginners (check out his examples). I have not helped directly with his framework, though I do my best not to break his code. :)

3) Juergen Kuehlwein had some concepts for improving fbc so that working with WinFBX fit more naturally in with fbc. I helped quite a bit to get his concepts or ideas in to the compiler. It's an on-going effort and my time is limited to help JK.

4) PaulSquires and WinFBE - based on WinFBX. He has provided community with an IDE and recent release package download. I could not ask for more. Have not helped him directly, hopefully not breaking his code either.

5) D.J. Peters has written tons and tons of code for this community. When I see him post with a problem, I can expect that he has tried everything to fix it, and so it's probably pretty nasty to deal with. Some I have managed to fix , and some I am still working on. Unfortunately, the fbc fixups probably break his workarounds.

6) fxm and documentation. When fxm brings problems to our attention, he's researched them in depth, complete with analysis and examples. By supporting him where I can, he helps new users and beginners.

7) St_W and daily builds. Providing an easy way for users to get latest and greatest fbc. This helps new users and beginners. And he helps development by independently running the test suite.

8) Deltarho and srvaldez working on testing the many tool chains and working PaulSquires or on their own to help new users or beginners try other toolchains.

9) All the others I have not mentioned (sorry folks, I will need to search the names/topics). Creating alternate packages, submitting bug reports, providing patches and bug fixes. All this goes toward making fbc better, which in the end helps new users and beginners.
speedfixer
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Re: FreeBASIC 1.08 Development

Post by speedfixer »

"Nonesense."

Agreed. Certainly, not that simple.

None of what I said was aimed at you. You have been very diligent, even tolerant, of people with their requests. I did not expect you to try to accommodate some of my expressions of frustration - but you did. Thank you. Truly, YOUR efforts - especially to support everyone else - have been monumental.

I was an analyst at a very large company. I never got a call unless virtually everyone had already failed at least 4 times to solve a problem. My bosses hated me: I would not move on or take a promotion. But I always fixed the problem. The fix was usually with just observation and a statement of honesty that they could not deny. Upper management didn't like that. The fault was usually their own. I found out later well after the merger that I was the only one of 500k people in our company that was declared 'unfireable.' Because when they needed an answer, I would be there.

A year or two ago, the discussions about improving FB and what to do about lack of maintainers had a lot of people scared and buzzing for awhile, then it all faded and the little bickering came back. Now we have moderators. That's good - but that is the only real change in the community since then.

I like FB.
FB is not a democracy or socialist effort.

It is each person's personal effort. And your contributions should be what makes YOU happy. Don't let that change.
If I were younger, I would have already added 0mq and a full network stack myself. As it was, I had my own goals to accomplish.

What I am saying in *this* post is that you are doing what you want to do and it should stay that way. MY voice wasn't aimed at you, but at all the others sitting around pushing for this and that, then getting scared when the overworked dev calls it quits and no new blood is on the horizon to pick up the slack. I think this is an exciting language. But I have two sons that are programmers and they yawn when I mention FB. Until I kick their ass with my app over theirs. Oh, WOW! Then yawn. Can't do this, can't do that, too much work to make this lib work.

Paul's integrated package might do more to bring new people in more than anything else that has been done recently (except 64 bit.) But that is Windows, only. Almost a yawn from my sons. (added: this is not to take any away from the others you mentioned.)

I just think FB can be better. But the GROUP has to desire it. Not just the overworked dev.

I will try to stay off any of this. Several times you have seemed to think I was aiming some/any of my remarks at you. Never once had that in mind.
Knatterton
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Re: FreeBASIC 1.08 Development

Post by Knatterton »

speedfixer wrote: @Knatterton:
Why not take FreeBASIC just as it is?
Then ... should we thank the devs and send them home?
On the other hand you can't expect the developers to do a full time job without payment with adding all the things you mentioned to the core fb. All i want to express, even with FreeBASIC 1.07 you can do almost everything, so there seems to be not much changes necessary.
coderJeff
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Re: FreeBASIC 1.08 Development

Post by coderJeff »

speedfixer wrote:(This series had, I think, expressed my sentiments more clearly than some of my other long-winded posts. And I think I can rest and I will try to not post any more of these too long exhortations. Oh, and this is NOT a complaint or plea to our developers or code submitters. More of the rest of the community should shout me down or otherwise put in their 2 cents worth. The same 5 or 6 are the only ones responding with opinions, and that bothers me. Though we are seeing visits in the multi hundreds for some reason, there really are only perhaps 20 that ever even ask questions, with fewer that reply.)
I did read all your text, and it feels to me like a mix of opinions, conclusions, and whatever this is above. Along the same lines as the "prove me wrong" statement ... and a few others. Like it's a debate tactic?, or something?. I can't quite describe it.

Anyway, challenging the forum to shout you down is not going to be helpful. That's not an opinion. I have plenty of evidence (on these forums) that tell me it's counter productive.
Lost Zergling
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Re: FreeBASIC 1.08 Development

Post by Lost Zergling »

"Though we are seeing visits in the multi hundreds for some reason,.." I think the language is starting to pass some thresholds. This is probably due to the contributions mentioned by coderJeff, including all the most important contributors but also mentioning the importance of all the others (Dodicat, ..). The more stones there are in the building, and the more these stones are qualities, they complement each other, challenge each other, and the more interest and follow-up there will be for the language. I continue to my side of course to improve my own tools, semi-dilettante at my level, with ideas, leads but relatively little time to devote. I agree speedfixer on an idea at least: that of identifying the points of blocking or reluctance to the adoption of language and to try to provide answers or effective alternatives. I noted this night an unavailability of the forum, the moment to realize all its importance in the life of the micro-community of developers.
coderJeff
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Re: FreeBASIC 1.08 Development

Post by coderJeff »

speedfixer wrote:A year or two ago, the discussions about improving FB and what to do about lack of maintainers had a lot of people scared and buzzing for awhile, then it all faded and the little bickering came back. Now we have moderators. That's good - but that is the only real change in the community since then.
I feel like it should be noticed, the addition of some members from PB community that have shared their time, and talent with this community. They have had some influences here using their skills and experience.
coderJeff
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Re: FreeBASIC 1.08 Development

Post by coderJeff »

Lost Zergling wrote:...(Dodicat, ..)...
lol, yes, the list of names looked like that in my head too. Dodicat is super handy to have here. I hope everyone included only by ", .." will not be offended.

Please feel free to recognize others. I think the detour is almost over.

----

I had a separate remark to make about angros47 and sound library.

That's great he's working on it. I support including it with fbc. I hope many will contribute to it's development and testing. It's written in freebasic, so it will also be interesting to see the first fbc built library packaged with fbc.
jj2007
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Re: FreeBASIC 1.08 Development

Post by jj2007 »

speedfixer wrote:Misquoted or not, Dykstra's comments means no BASIC will ever be a language taught in mainstream education, however powerful it is, unless a VERY complete package can be brought to the table.
I love misquoting Dykstra's comment using C++ instead of Basic. IMHO FB's problem is not that it's BASIC but rather that there are too many C++ developers around who tinker with FreeBasic trying to translate it to some "simpler" version of C++. And they insist that it must work with their personal C++ toolchain.

This forum is full of posts asking for help with litte proggies that do not work because VC, Clang, Gcc etc have a hiccup. And then the discussion starts whether an environment variable is not set properly, whether the path is ok, whether the namespace is set properly, whether it's the fault of the IDE (we have far too many), exactly which header file needs to be used to make VC, Clang, Gcc etc happy. Trial and error, sleepless nights spent in the desperate attempt to please a C++ compiler. That is the exact opposite of what Basic was meant to be...
Juergen Kuehlwein
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Re: FreeBASIC 1.08 Development

Post by Juergen Kuehlwein »

In my opinon every adequate discussion is better than no discussion, even if there are controversial points of view. A reasonable outcome requires a reasonable discussion.

All those, who fear adding new features would bloat FB in an unacceptable way, should know, that the compiler is clever enough to add only what´s needed to an executable. In other words, more features doesn´t necessarily mean bigger executables or longer compile times. On the other hand every new feature means a new key word in the global namespace, but that´s a price i would pay.


JK
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Re: FreeBASIC 1.08 Development

Post by Tourist Trap »

Juergen Kuehlwein wrote: All those, who fear adding new features would bloat FB in an unacceptable way, should know, that the compiler is clever enough to add only what´s needed to an executable. In other words, more features doesn´t necessarily mean bigger executables or longer compile times. On the other hand every new feature means a new key word in the global namespace, but that´s a price i would pay.
Hi JK,

from my part I'm only sensitive to the consistency of the syntax and behaviour of any possible new feature. If you can intuit what the feature could be, or how it should work, and say "this is how it has to be", then it will be a good addition. If it doesn't work as usual, or has a different logic compared to the surrounding stuff, and/or simply hurts the intuition, then it will seem to me bad addition.

However, different consistent logics, styles, for keywords can coexist if encapsulated. For instance FB has 3 "lang" modes with each their proper styles working in isolation. And in general, we can use namespaces for this purpose also.
coderJeff
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Re: FreeBASIC 1.08 Development

Post by coderJeff »

jj2007 wrote:IMHO FB's problem is not that it's BASIC but rather that there are too many C++ developers around who tinker with FreeBasic trying to translate it to some "simpler" version of C++. And they insist that it must work with their personal C++ toolchain.

This forum is full of posts asking for help with litte proggies that do not work because VC, Clang, Gcc etc have a hiccup. And then the discussion starts whether an environment variable is not set properly, whether the path is ok, whether the namespace is set properly, whether it's the fault of the IDE (we have far too many), exactly which header file needs to be used to make VC, Clang, Gcc etc happy. Trial and error, sleepless nights spent in the desperate attempt to please a C++ compiler. That is the exact opposite of what Basic was meant to be...
There are some shreds of truth to this. And a whole bunch of incorrect conclusions. I can't figure out your objective presenting it this way.

I don't mind discussing some of the technical stuff.
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Re: FreeBASIC 1.08 Development

Post by coderJeff »

@MrSwiss. I deleted your post. Unfair? email me: coder@execulink.com.
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