Could someone make a list of FreeBASIC GUI libraries/frameworks?

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jj2007
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Re: Could someone make a list of FreeBASIC GUI libraries/frameworks?

Postby jj2007 » Apr 20, 2020 10:48

Munair wrote:Wine is usually a last resort. I used it long ago to run Dreamweaver 8 on Linux. The problem with Wine was (probably still is) that after an update,one or two Windows programs may no longer run. I consider Wine a nasty patch for running programs for which there are no good Linux alternatives.

How long ago was that? From what I see, there is a massive investment there, and Microsoft is behind it... apparently they want to merge Linux & Windows. Not in the real sense, of course.

Linux-Windows compatibility layer Wine 5.0 is now out, with over 7,000 updates
Munair
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Re: Could someone make a list of FreeBASIC GUI libraries/frameworks?

Postby Munair » Apr 20, 2020 11:37

jj2007 wrote:
Munair wrote:Wine is usually a last resort. I used it long ago to run Dreamweaver 8 on Linux. The problem with Wine was (probably still is) that after an update,one or two Windows programs may no longer run. I consider Wine a nasty patch for running programs for which there are no good Linux alternatives.

How long ago was that? From what I see, there is a massive investment there, and Microsoft is behind it... apparently they want to merge Linux & Windows. Not in the real sense, of course.

Linux-Windows compatibility layer Wine 5.0 is now out, with over 7,000 updates
Several years, but Windows and Linux will not be merged, unless Microsoft will open-source Windows. Microsoft's motivation to support Wine is probably that they support the use of Windows app wherever they can; people still have to pay for it so why not let them use it on Linux properly?
systemctl
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Re: Could someone make a list of FreeBASIC GUI libraries/frameworks?

Postby systemctl » Apr 20, 2020 15:25

marcov wrote:
systemctl wrote:
marcov wrote:


It's about distribute your apps. Not how big your root partition is.


No, since that goes via the package system and is probably already installed anyway.


It only true for something like .net framework, java runtime or visual c++ redistribute package on Windows and gtk+ or qt on Linux.

But the fact is you should see that Qt applications have to ship their own version of Qt DLLs (QtCore, QtGui...). Imagine if you use a ton of them, how many Qt DLLs available on your system I wonder? And it's usually not safe to replace the DLLs shipped by the developers with other versions (if it even works!). Some devs build their DLLs with MinGW. Some build with MSVC. Even different version of MSVC produced incompatible binaries, let alone the fact that the DLLs should be from different Qt versions (most of the time they are).
systemctl
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Re: Could someone make a list of FreeBASIC GUI libraries/frameworks?

Postby systemctl » Apr 20, 2020 15:40

Munair wrote:Wine is usually a last resort. I used it long ago to run Dreamweaver 8 on Linux. The problem with Wine was (probably still is) that after an update,one or two Windows programs may no longer run. I consider Wine a nasty patch for running programs for which there are no good Linux alternatives.


I agreed with you. Wine is the last resort. I use it when I want to run a Windows program and don't have a Windows license. The fact is I have never bought a Windows license. I use the version preinstalled on my laptop but it has been replaced by Linux a long time ago. If wine failed to do it job, I will set up VirtualBox and use Microsoft's trial virtual machine image for testing the edge browser (it's Windows 10).
systemctl
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Re: Could someone make a list of FreeBASIC GUI libraries/frameworks?

Postby systemctl » Apr 20, 2020 15:44

jj2007 wrote:So what stops the Linux community from using WinAPI on Wine as "the" GUI framework? The name? A general aversion against Windows? Or are there technical arguments?

WinAPI is not extremely simple, but there are guides all over the web, and I guess each and every little problem has been discussed somewhere.


No, it's plain wrong. It's the same as you can use Dosbox to run Dos programs on Windows but you can't substitute native Windows applications with it.
systemctl
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Re: Could someone make a list of FreeBASIC GUI libraries/frameworks?

Postby systemctl » Apr 20, 2020 15:51

jj2007 wrote:
Munair wrote:Wine is usually a last resort. I used it long ago to run Dreamweaver 8 on Linux. The problem with Wine was (probably still is) that after an update,one or two Windows programs may no longer run. I consider Wine a nasty patch for running programs for which there are no good Linux alternatives.

How long ago was that? From what I see, there is a massive investment there, and Microsoft is behind it... apparently they want to merge Linux & Windows. Not in the real sense, of course.

Linux-Windows compatibility layer Wine 5.0 is now out, with over 7,000 updates


Wine is pretty good now. One of wine's weakness prevented me from using Microsoft Office under it is the font rendering. It's too bad even if we applied all of tricks from the internet. But now the font rendering is as good as on Windows. And I now consider to use MS Office under Wine.

But Wine is never perfect! I tried to run CodeBlocks under wine, it worked fine but at startup there are errors about wxwidgets assertion failure. This proved that Wine is not perfect. And please note that when use Windows based IDE under wine when you execute the program from the IDE only GUI applications are shown but console applications are not. You will not see anything but the console applications is indeed still running and you have to stop it manually. My conclusion: never developed console based applications with IDE running under wine, only GUI applications! And if your GUI applications write to stderr (most of the time also means stdout) you also can't see the content of stderr since there is no console out there to show!

So my advise: don't use WinFBE or any Windows only IDEs under wine. On Linux, use PoseidonFB, IUP_FB_EDITOR or VisualFBEditor!
systemctl
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Re: Could someone make a list of FreeBASIC GUI libraries/frameworks?

Postby systemctl » Apr 20, 2020 15:59

Munair wrote:
jj2007 wrote:
Munair wrote:Wine is usually a last resort. I used it long ago to run Dreamweaver 8 on Linux. The problem with Wine was (probably still is) that after an update,one or two Windows programs may no longer run. I consider Wine a nasty patch for running programs for which there are no good Linux alternatives.

How long ago was that? From what I see, there is a massive investment there, and Microsoft is behind it... apparently they want to merge Linux & Windows. Not in the real sense, of course.

Linux-Windows compatibility layer Wine 5.0 is now out, with over 7,000 updates
Several years, but Windows and Linux will not be merged, unless Microsoft will open-source Windows. Microsoft's motivation to support Wine is probably that they support the use of Windows app wherever they can; people still have to pay for it so why not let them use it on Linux properly?


Agreed! MS has to take part in in order to control it. If they don't other players still continue to develop it as usual. As I know MS has made a statement about not sue wine so it's nothing to stop it development by other companies at all.
marcov
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Re: Could someone make a list of FreeBASIC GUI libraries/frameworks?

Postby marcov » Apr 20, 2020 17:36

systemctl wrote:
marcov wrote:
systemctl wrote:
It's about distribute your apps. Not how big your root partition is.


No, since that goes via the package system and is probably already installed anyway.


It only true for something like .net framework, java runtime or visual c++ redistribute package on Windows and gtk+ or qt on Linux.


Yes, and my QT remarks are purely for *nix, and maybe OS X(*). I don't advocate using QT on Windows. Remember I was talking about an overarching widgetset ala lazarus LCL. You typically don't use 3rd party widgetsets with Windows, unless you are one of the very few for which Windows is a minority target

QT's api is closer to Winapi in certain conventions (like specifying the netto client area of widgets, iow with bezels etc subtracted) than other ones (and then I'm specifically looking at GTK)

(*) OS X cocoa is probably a bridge too far right now, and the easier option of Carbon that Lazarus started with is no longer a sane route.
systemctl
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Re: Could someone make a list of FreeBASIC GUI libraries/frameworks?

Postby systemctl » Apr 21, 2020 7:10

marcov wrote:(*) OS X cocoa is probably a bridge too far right now, and the easier option of Carbon that Lazarus started with is no longer a sane route.


As I said, FLTK supports Mac so if someday fbc supports Mac we could use FLTK to develop application for it.
Xusinboy Bekchanov
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Re: Could someone make a list of FreeBASIC GUI libraries/frameworks?

Postby Xusinboy Bekchanov » Apr 21, 2020 8:09

systemctl wrote:As I said, FLTK supports Mac so if someday fbc supports Mac we could use FLTK to develop application for it.

GTK also works with macOS
systemctl
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Re: Could someone make a list of FreeBASIC GUI libraries/frameworks?

Postby systemctl » Apr 21, 2020 15:08

Xusinboy Bekchanov wrote:
systemctl wrote:As I said, FLTK supports Mac so if someday fbc supports Mac we could use FLTK to develop application for it.

GTK also works with macOS


Great! So basically we have one API target any known platforms!
systemctl
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Re: Could someone make a list of FreeBASIC GUI libraries/frameworks?

Postby systemctl » Apr 21, 2020 16:52

As the end of this thread, I have my conclusion: Like other BASIC dialects (except Gambas3 goes into a full featured environment could compete with Free Pascal's Lazarus) the future for FreeBASIC should be graphics and games development, not GUI. GUI is a create addition to FreeBASIC's ecosystem, but I think up to date translation of opengl headers or... vulkan (we could dream, isn't it?) and various graphics + image processing/manipulation libraries are much more important. So to me the future direction for FreeBASIC is graphics and games programming.

The GUI market is too small and fragmented, specially on desktop, where there are a ton of C++ libraries/toolkits/frameworks competing and many others languages and their corresponding GUI libraries/toolkits/frameworks. FreeBASIC can't compete with Lazarus for rapid gui development, unless like marcov said, when we develop our own RAD environment.
marcov
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Re: Could someone make a list of FreeBASIC GUI libraries/frameworks?

Postby marcov » Apr 21, 2020 17:23

systemctl wrote: opengl headers or... vulkan


That makes FB as much a game oriented language as having a GTK header makes it a GUI oriented one, nearly every not trivial language has that, it is not really something that makes a language stand out as a game language.

For that you need at least a quite a non trivial layer over that.

E.g. for FPC

vulkan: https://github.com/BeRo1985/pasvulkan
opengl: At least 3 different header sets, standard headers delivered with the distro, dglopengl (compat to Delphi) as 3rd party download as a more OS X oriented header. All fairly up to date (opengl 4.5-4.6)

(we could dream, isn't it?) and various graphics + image processing/manipulation libraries are much more important. So to me the future direction for FreeBASIC is graphics and games programming.


Well. Since fbgfx is somewhat dated, that makes it a start from scratch. At least for GUI there is TJF's GTK header.
deltarho[1859]
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Re: Could someone make a list of FreeBASIC GUI libraries/frameworks?

Postby deltarho[1859] » Apr 21, 2020 20:26

systemctl wrote:the future for FreeBASIC should be graphics and games development, not GUI.

So, no change there then after 102 replies. Image
Lost Zergling
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Re: Could someone make a list of FreeBASIC GUI libraries/frameworks?

Postby Lost Zergling » Apr 21, 2020 21:42

systemctl wrote:
the future for FreeBASIC should be graphics and games development, not GUI.

FreeBasic has gradually become a multi-specialty language. How would functions oriented towards game development be contrary to the use of a GUI? I have nothing against thinking that the future of FB could be graphics and games, why not, but what bothers me is that it should only be that and nothing else, like if the truth was to restrain language. I understand that it is a "noble" part mathematically speaking, and also that it is a hard and competitive issue requiring advanced means and skills. No one is preventing you. I believe in ease, in the greatest accessibility, but with possibilities of scalar complexity, in RAD but RAD with scalar complexity. It is for these reasons that I mentioned TinyDialog in my previous post, precisely to underline the fact that even GUIs are too complicated and that easy to use and offbeat products can arouse, in a relevant context (ie handling quick and easy), developer interest, and finding an audience. As Marcov so aptly puts it, RAD requires solid objects. To make them efficient you need expertise, knowledge, work and talent, or as you prefer time, sweat and headaches. The contexts do not compete with each other (except those actually in duplicates, like 15 different GUIs but without real distinctive originality, yes), the different contexts enrich each other. The purpose of these contexts is to enrich the language and not to enclose it in an increasingly targeted expertise and in a narrow field of application and ultimately incapable of competing with anything else. I think you are both right and wrong. Reason for wanting graphics and games, but wrong to believe that the other fields of application will change to become graphics and games at your convenience: they will not change, they will not strengthen, they will pass out.

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