What do new users need?

[BasicCoder2]

There has been talk in the FreeBASIC 1.08 Development thread about the requirements for beginners to FreeBASIC and beginners to both FreeBasic and programming. I would suggest they are the only ones who can say what they need as regards a computer language in terms of ease of installation and tutorial requirements?

In reality how many are there that are interested in using or learning FreeBASIC?

How many on going active members have joined over the last 12 months?

Looking at the Members list I see most new members do not post and most of their websites are to essentially self promote and sell their products unrelated to programming?

[jj2007]

Check yourself: all members with 100 posts and more (tab format, opens fine with Excel etc). Look in particular at the joined date column.

[BasicCoder2]

@jj2007
Sorry I kept editing the post including the subject line and messed it up.
In the last line of the post I wrote " Looking at the Members list" so I am aware of it and made reference to it regarding no posts and self promotion of websites unrelated to programming.
I don't have Xcel nor do I see any way to download the whole members list.
It just seems to me that the new users need to speak up if they actually exist.

[badidea]

I don't have Xcel nor do I see any way to download the whole members list.

It is a plain text file.

As I see it, BASIC was the beginners language in the 70's, 80's and 90's when every computer shipped with BASIC and internet did not exist yet. Now there are much more languages to choose from, and some the competition have better cards: package managers, cleaner syntax, more compact code, more (build-in) features (like array slicing and lists), more users, better example code. So I don't see why a beginner now, would choose freeBASIC. Many people who begin with freeBASIC are probably (retired) persons who started programming with BASIC 70's, 80's and 90's. And those who just want to try something different.

[BasicCoder2]

But how do I select and paste the whole 305 pages at once. I can do it one page at a time.

[badidea]

I see what you mean, probably not possible unless you have direct access to the forum database.

[Lost Zergling]

@badidea. It would be fine to see lzle/ae as integrated features, cons : products not yet mature, properly documentd nor finished, honnestly would probably need to be rewrited or code review by an advanced coding expert, plus lots of work by me. Another trouble would be licence : as showed by 'codebaseteam' experience, the lzle licence allowed me a symbolic 'kick off' of the 'intruder'. More generally, I think we need to protect, at least symbolically, 'our' original features, because they can contribute to attract users versus other langages (*). According to me, lzle licence shall be classified LLD https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licence ... _diffusion
because it allows all usages …in fbc (but that is not illegitim)
(*) : I'm afraid having a tooth against Java,and consorts, the time they launched, they did not gave their specific features, yes ?
Well, perhaps I'm all wrong, nevertheless , 'une ex,…plication vaudrait mieux,…' (a french song reference)

[caseih]

Lately I've seen a resurgence of interest in old 8-bit computers with built-in BASIC. I'm not sure if it's just old guys waxing nostalgic like me, or if some of the younger children are getting into it during covid times. But despite the horrid syntax and lack of structural syntactic sugar, there really was something to learning BASIC programming on these old devices like the C64. It was accessible (turn it on and go), but also close enough to the metal that someone who wanted to poke and prod could do so and eventually try machine language or other languages.

Anyway, here's an interesting article that makes the case for a language like FB still being a useful teaching tool:
http://www.nicolasbize.com/blog/30-year ... -the-best/
Although maybe this article strikes at the heart of the issue here which isn't the language itself (FB is very mature and useful), but the environment itself. QBasic's barrier to entry was nearly as low as the original C64. Fire it up, and go. FB's heritage is more unix-like, where command-line compiling (and makefiles) reigned for many years.

I wonder how many of the active posters actually use FB. I know most of you do. But I know a good number of us don't, such as myself, jj, marcov, etc. I post here mainly for nostalgic reasons, and that I like programming in general. But maybe I'm contributing to some of the FB existential problems by continuing to post. I dunno!

[Lost Zergling]

@caseih. I really appreciate your posts, thank you for being with us. Thinking easy can be incredibly difficult. Afterwards, we will say, yes it's easy because it's so easy, so simple and then it already existed: everyone knew it. A child could do it. However, try to come up with a design that is original, intuitive and relevant.

[caseih]

thanks. Same to you.

[speedfixer]

What do new users need?

Certainly, everyone has their own personal barrier to overcome when they start.

I think it is true that the nostalgia and never-lost memories from those old machines with BASIC was the INSTANT gratification of making your short program work, whether blinking color boxes or sqeeks and tones. All by yourself: you knew YOU did something.

Maybe a really, really simple editor that could wrap the compiler, etc. could be offered that could give back that feeling?
For short and simple programs, we don't expect anyone to learn pointers and UDTs, graphics modes and how to use a library header.
If they want to learn, they will.

Its that *first* spark that is important for new future programmers.

david

[aurelVZAB]

@BasicCoder2 >>
In reality how many are there that are interested in using or learning FreeBASIC?
How many on going active members have joined over the last 12 months?
----------------------------------------------------------------
If we thinking on that way then all our talking is useless.
Did you ask yourself why for example QB64 is a much more popular basic dialect?
My main point is to make FB more user(beginer) friendly.
------------------------------------------------------------------

@speedfixer >>
Maybe a really, really simple editor that could wrap the compiler, etc. could be offered that could give back that feeling?

----------------------------------------
Exactly ..that is my thinking.


Another thing ...I don't use FB every day and that does not mean that i don't like it and when i need it i use it.
Also FB is a good choice of BASIC on Linux.

[jj2007]

I don't have Xcel nor do I see any way to download the whole members list

Try again; extract to a folder and drag the tab file over the exe. Do not use the spreadsheet editor for serious stuff, it's work in progress!

[jj2007]

Maybe a really, really simple editor that could wrap the compiler, etc. could be offered that could give back that feeling?

I fully agree, David. I posted this yesterday in the FB development thread but no feedback so far. This should be close to what you are asking for...

I made a little installer for Windows - please give me feedback about errors, design, missing features

[dodicat]

Maybe make this a .zip file jj2007, so people can see what they are getting.
E.g.
What is the editor?
Does the installer put anything on the system path?
Does the installer alter the registry?
-- and other little questions like this.