It's a long way

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Lost Zergling
Posts: 154
Joined: Dec 02, 2011 22:51
Location: France

It's a long way

Postby Lost Zergling » Apr 24, 2018 10:58

Hello,
It is always difficult to be your own tester (lzle), and even more so with the increase in complexity. Any contribution is welcome. I take a critical example of optimization tests: this will depend on datasets, their structure, their volume, how they are understood by the algorithms according to the possibilities of the engine, and so on. Thus, a simple gross comparative percentage with Python does not mean much: there should be at least trends based on volumetrics and uses, and targeted comparative critical estimates (strengths and weaknesses). For optimal performance, the most relevant ways (avoiding mathematical modeling) must be found to guide index optimizations intuitively or automatically as needed. I continue of course to move in my own way, however I can miss functional needs, forget critical bugs for other types of use than mine, etc. I still have some ideas for technical and functional evolutions but I think I will move forward on the documentation while remaining attentive to any bugs reported.
Tourist Trap
Posts: 2445
Joined: Jun 02, 2015 16:24

Re: It's a long way

Postby Tourist Trap » Apr 24, 2018 14:57

Lost Zergling wrote:Hello,
It is always difficult to be your own tester (lzle), and even more so with the increase in complexity. Any contribution is welcome.

Hi zergling!
I would enjoy make some testings, but I'm short of time if I had to go into it after the english documentation. We here all do our best to use English to communicate, but sometimes it is not efficient. I would for my part appreciate that you made a subtopic in french somewhere where we would go really in the deepness of the thing. Tell me what you think of that, for example in the documentation section it would be meaningful to have a french version, or alone or inside the thread in English. Moreover you would probably be shorter (concise) and simply explain what you need. The same for the tester if he is more fluent in french than he would be in the Shakespeare's idioms!

What do you think ? Maybe worth a try, I don't know.
Lost Zergling
Posts: 154
Joined: Dec 02, 2011 22:51
Location: France

Re: It's a long way

Postby Lost Zergling » Apr 24, 2018 20:18

Hello !
That's a good idea. I'm often using Google Translate. I'll think about a documentation or subtopic in french : this needs some time (french or english) : this should not substitute to an english doc/topic, but easier for me in french.
Tourist Trap
Posts: 2445
Joined: Jun 02, 2015 16:24

Re: It's a long way

Postby Tourist Trap » Apr 26, 2018 14:47

Lost Zergling wrote:Hello !
That's a good idea. I'm often using Google Translate. I'll think about a documentation or subtopic in french : this needs some time (french or english) : this should not substitute to an english doc/topic, but easier for me in french.

So as soon as you are ready I'll read the doc and see what we can do as a matter of testing.
MrSwiss
Posts: 2876
Joined: Jun 02, 2013 9:27
Location: Switzerland

Re: It's a long way

Postby MrSwiss » Apr 26, 2018 16:24

Lost Zergling wrote:That's a good idea. I'll think about a documentation or subtopic in french : this needs some time (french or english)
Not really, since this forum is: english only (as a compatriot of you: fxm, once
(at least) clearly stated).
The reason should be *blindingly obvious*: not again, a *babylonian chaos*, here!

If you want to open up, a french only FB forum, that's a entirely different story.
(We already have: russian/japanese/german etc., but all in their own locations,
aka: their own Web-Spaces / Domains.)
paul doe
Posts: 832
Joined: Jul 25, 2017 17:22
Location: Argentina

Re: It's a long way

Postby paul doe » Apr 26, 2018 21:55

MrSwiss wrote:
Lost Zergling wrote:That's a good idea. I'll think about a documentation or subtopic in french : this needs some time (french or english)
Not really, since this forum is: english only (as a compatriot of you: fxm, once
(at least) clearly stated).

I agree. English is a sort of 'common language' in this forum, and sometimes essential, if you want to elicit a response from other members. You can bet that neither MrSwiss nor I are native english speakers, yet we do our best to express ourselves in it. In case it's too difficult to express something, you can always rely on some other french-speaking members (Tourist Trap and fxm, to name but two) to help you translate posts/documentation, provided they are willing to do so, that is...
Tourist Trap
Posts: 2445
Joined: Jun 02, 2015 16:24

Re: It's a long way

Postby Tourist Trap » Apr 27, 2018 15:47

paul doe wrote:I agree. English is a sort of 'common language' in this forum, and sometimes essential, if you want to elicit a response from other members...

Hello,

I have to say here that it is not about invading the whole threads with the french idiom. This is about the documentation. Zergling has already made a great deal of english wording of his work, but it's still too technical. The topic is indeed technical by design. So at this step a short description in french shouldn't hurt in any manner. Once again, the English version is already done.

Now there is 2 choices remaining. Or the most English compatible users join this project and I'm not needed anymore and I will be happy to watch the project growing up from my harmchair. Or, else, let's state a subversion of the English topic, and I'm in the game.

In conclusion, this is not about a french forum, or a mixture, but about a description in french of technical stuff coming in completing of some great deal of work already made available for English readers. We maybe should observe additionally that the documentation section should be multilinguistic. The lack of this property is the current state, not an objective. I'm not sure that google translate can compete with the translation of a native.

(I may of course be wrong. I tend to think however that we had been simply misunderstood in our first part of the exchange above, or not read ;) )
paul doe
Posts: 832
Joined: Jul 25, 2017 17:22
Location: Argentina

Re: It's a long way

Postby paul doe » Apr 27, 2018 16:08

Tourist Trap wrote:I have to say here that it is not about invading the whole threads with the french idiom.

Nobody said that. I only said that you'll probably get more responses if you write in english, nothing was assumed or implied from my part.
Tourist Trap wrote:(I may of course be wrong. I tend to think however that we had been simply misunderstood in our first part of the exchange above, or not read ;) )

Not really an issue, you see. I for one have nothing against it. But of course, as I don't speak french, I'll have to pass on the 'technical side' of the project...

;)
Tourist Trap
Posts: 2445
Joined: Jun 02, 2015 16:24

Re: It's a long way

Postby Tourist Trap » Apr 27, 2018 16:19

paul doe wrote:Not really an issue, you see. I for one have nothing against it. But of course, as I don't speak french, I'll have to pass on the 'technical side' of the project...

;)

Ahah, yes but you can already check the tutorial in English:
viewtopic.php?f=9&t=26551

Whatever, you are right that if I had to ask something to the many I should use the English. That's just that here I'm not able to ask anything, I'm like a sitting duck. Maybe a few word in the mother tongue could energize my old brain!
MrSwiss
Posts: 2876
Joined: Jun 02, 2013 9:27
Location: Switzerland

Re: It's a long way

Postby MrSwiss » Apr 27, 2018 19:29

Tourist Trap wrote:Now there is 2 choices remaining. Or the most English compatible users join this project and I'm not needed anymore and I will be happy to watch the project growing up from my harmchair. Or, else, let's state a subversion of the English topic, and I'm in the game.
Very, really very bad policy of you: trying to threaten people here ...
(IMHO, you should be banned, from this forum, just for the attempt!)

Rules where made for all, to play by them, to which you also agreed, by signing up!
(Just in case you've forgotten.)
cbruce
Posts: 106
Joined: Sep 12, 2007 19:13
Location: Dallas, Texas

Re: It's a long way

Postby cbruce » May 01, 2018 15:38

.
Please, MrSwiss... it sounds to me like this is just a misunderstanding.

I thought that Tourist Trap was only telling us that he would be of very little help if someone were to ask him to aid in documenting, a very technical project, where the discussion of the documentation was only in English. I believe he was just proposing a side-channel where his input could be of some value. The result of which, would be that the best English-writing individuals of that group would update the documentation... that documentation being done in English.

I could be wrong, but I don't believe that there was anything aggressive in Tourist Trap's statements.

FYI... There ain't nothin' but Kansas and Texas versions of American-English comin' out of this ol' boy!

I've traveled the world... but other languages are just like a warm ol' stick of butter when my mind try's to grab hold of them.
.
St_W
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Joined: Feb 11, 2009 14:24
Location: Austria
Contact:

Re: It's a long way

Postby St_W » May 01, 2018 17:12

In general english should be the primary language to be used for code, comments in the code and documentation. Of course additional localized documentation may be useful for some projects, but that will mostly be just a translation of the english text. Discussion is a bit different and doesn't have to be in english, depending on the targeted audience. This forum and the wiki are currently english-only and I think that's fine as it targets an international audience of FreeBasic programmers. (For example, while I might be able to somewhat follow a discussion in french, I couldn't actively take part as my french is just too bad. English isn't my native language either but allows me to actively contribute. I guess it's similar for many other members.)
You seem to be looking for other communication channels where you can use your native language. I'm sure there are french (Free)Basic forums, but what about trying good old IRC (for instant messaging) or eMail if its just you two communicating directly with each other?
jj2007
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Joined: Oct 23, 2016 15:28
Location: Roma, Italia
Contact:

Re: It's a long way

Postby jj2007 » May 01, 2018 19:11

This forum is English only, right?

While I agree with the general idea, I would have no problem with a handful of specific threads dedicated to translate the FB manual to another language, say: Russian. It shouldn't become a habit to mix languages like that, but a thread providing help in French, Russian, Italian will not kill the "one common language" spirit of this forum. Maybe admins could explicitly mark such threads with a tag in the title, e.g. [FR allowed]?

French, Russian, Italian FB coders will inevitably land here, and those who struggle with English would be more than grateful to find a thread that helps them with their native language, and may contain, for example, links to (English) threads dealing with specific issues.

But again: It shouldn't become a habit.
BasicCoder2
Posts: 3323
Joined: Jan 01, 2009 7:03

Re: It's a long way

Postby BasicCoder2 » May 01, 2018 20:13

St_W wrote:In general English should be the primary language to be used for code, comments in the code and documentation.

As an English only reader I have had problems understanding source code where the variable labels were written in another language. That also applies to the comments being written in another language. I did try to google translate the source code but that resulted in a rearrangement of the text. Also a translator fails when shorthand versions of a label are used such as lbl for label or even just adding a number such as lbl1, lbl2 and so on.

One way I could imagine this being overcome is if a list is made of the labels being used along with their translations and a simple Search and Replace to make it readable by others.
length, longueur, länge, längd, longitud, lunghezza, длина and so on ...
Although I suspect not many if any programmers would bother doing this. Many don't even bother providing any documentation perhaps assuming that the reader already understands the math and algorithm involved.

However I have found google translations of web pages very readable.
St_W
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Joined: Feb 11, 2009 14:24
Location: Austria
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Re: It's a long way

Postby St_W » May 01, 2018 20:51

BasicCoder2 wrote:[...] I have had problems understanding source code where the variable labels were written in another language. That also applies to the comments being written in another language.
That happened to me too. It's especially hard when dealing with languages I do not know at all and that isn't even similar to one I know. Fortunately modern code suffers from this problem only very rarely anymore, but old code often happens to be written with non-english names/labels/comments/etc. making it very hard to read for an international audience. (And keep in mind that "It’s harder to read code than to write it" already without any language barriers)
I mentioned this just as a note to keep in mind when writing code.

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