MULTIKEY missing on page FBWiki : CatPgInput [SOLVED]

Forum for discussion about the documentation project.
Trinity
Posts: 214
Joined: Sep 16, 2017 17:07

Re: MULTIKEY missing on page FBWiki : CatPgInput [SOLVED]

Postby Trinity » Sep 25, 2017 12:14

MrSwiss wrote:It won't help anybody, to have "the best intro", if it can't be found, by the people, needing it the most ...

Thank you very much for your concern for beginners and for all the help that you give both here and there :-)

As for the beginners then my suggestion would be to give beginners their own start page (with a mix of subsequent pages and references as needed) and then reference to that beginners start page both here https://www.freebasic.net/wiki/wikka.php?wakka=FBWiki and here https://www.freebasic.net/wiki/wikka.php?wakka=DocToc and maybe even under getting started here (?)(might be too much for some but that's were the hello world and primer #1 are) : https://www.freebasic.net/wiki/wikka.ph ... Programmer
(b.t.w. , I am not necessarily saying that I think that the logic in Primer #1 is good enough but I would be hard pressed to attempt to do better myself and not sure that I necessarily could)

What spurred me to the suggestion above is a combination of your post and the fact that I days ago on my local off-line start pages (made using PageBreeze HTML Editor) for my internet browser made a set of links on one of the pages so that it's only a two click operation in browser from start page to get to the linked places (one click to get to the page with all the links and one click to get to the wiki page in question) , I am not suggesting that I am typical or that my links are the best to model after but I have this as saved link list in that order :
https://www.freebasic.net/wiki/wikka.php?wakka=DocToc
https://www.freebasic.net/wiki/wikka.ph ... odeLibrary
https://www.freebasic.net/wiki/wikka.ph ... Programmer
https://www.freebasic.net/wiki/wikka.ph ... yTutorials
https://www.freebasic.net/wiki/wikka.ph ... mpilerHelp
https://www.freebasic.net/wiki/CatPgOpIndex
https://www.freebasic.net/wiki/CatPgOperators
https://www.freebasic.net/wiki/wikka.php?wakka=DevToc

The above list is not even a list of what I necessarily use or have used but more of a list of what I would like to remember to look at later or have on my todo list.
Also I can not list to stuff/pages not there and I can only link to what is there

Anyway , with the general way existing where the wiki is first and foremost the experienced programmers reference (ref. statement by FMX and the overload info at the built-in functions syntax) (which is kind of OK with me to the extend that one are capable to understand it all - which one unfortunately can not with out proper syntax introduction ) then I think that the right attitude to adopt would also be to give beginners their own section where knowledge about stuff (including about the advanced programmers wiki also) is built up from the ground as much as is needed.
So it's like : What does the user need to understand in order to understand , again meaning what is more *basic* knowledge than what. Also it is of no use to dispense knowledge to people without directing their attention/consciousness to the fact that you are doing it : meaning it is of no use that you in lines of programming uses lines like DIM mynumber as Integer interchanged with DIM as Integer mynumber to demonstrate that you can use both and then think that I learn it if you do not tell me and point out to me what you are actually doing because how else could you with any right expect people to notice or maybe even not be confused (?) Along those lines then you can not even expect beginners to pick up on how to put multiple statements on same line if you do not introduce (direct their attention to) the dividing character : making it possible....
I mean if people want to learn basic stuff about computers then they must generally be referred to go else where but with respect to a basic beginners introduction to a language - and I am not specifying where to start here and not trying to set limits for what people are supposed to know - I am leaving that up to others but otherwise then : It will have to start from the ground and then from the ground up is from the ground up.
I am not necessarily suggesting a complete rework , because after proper introduction then a mix of tutorials and references and links to existing pages for e.g. data types , operators , built in functions and so on could maybe do well (?)...
Introducing enough knowledge of......... and establishing an understanding of the logic used and needed to understand more / the rest
Of course there are still need for more and better documentation about important features and stuff but again I know mostly only what problems I have had and what refers to that - not that I have burdened this forum every time I have had problem understanding something and not that I can even remember all the stuff I spent much time trying to find out

But final advice to anybody interested in making stuff more beginner friendly is this (which some may find a little peculiar) :
Do not rush into making all this , instead start spending the time with principles and with making outlays and designing. I think that designing the way and the order (sequence) by which information is dealt and introduced is as important as the how the information itself is introduced/dispensed.....

Sorry , I get a little carried away some times , but I mean well , and just my two cents I guess :-)
MrSwiss
Posts: 2585
Joined: Jun 02, 2013 9:27
Location: Switzerland

Re: MULTIKEY missing on page FBWiki : CatPgInput [SOLVED]

Postby MrSwiss » Sep 25, 2017 13:07

If I'm getting the "gist" of your writing correct, then you are in fact referring to a classical: "step by step tutorial",
far less, to what belongs into a reference ... (a misinterpretation by myself).
Since there are a few of those, out there (see also tutorials, in manual), that's not, what I've been referring to, at all.

What I'd like to promote is: Help on using and understanding the *Reference Manual* (explanation of structure,
the two internal libraries, what they contain, how they relate to the Compiler etc., etc.).
Once you have "digested", the *Help for Reference Manual*, you should be able to use it, without any problems!
This is the reason, that it has to be a integral part of the reference (and not located in, e.g. tutorials).

Btw: this should also "clear" the confusion in reasoning, between the various parties, involved in this thread ... (I'm getting
the impression, that we are all wanting "more or less", the same things, just using different terms, to describe them.)
Trinity
Posts: 214
Joined: Sep 16, 2017 17:07

Re: MULTIKEY missing on page FBWiki : CatPgInput [SOLVED]

Postby Trinity » Sep 25, 2017 13:46

MrSwiss wrote:If I'm getting the "gist" of your writing correct, then you are in fact referring to a classical: "step by step tutorial",
far less, to what belongs into a reference ... (a misinterpretation by myself).
Since there are a few of those, out there (see also tutorials, in manual), that's not, what I've been referring to, at all.

Well ,while I might have gone a little overboard there then I am not sure that I necessarily were saying a "tutorial" as such but at least an introduction that also included an intro to the most basic conventions and elements of *FB* for those new to FB but not necessarily new to programming as such.
A *real* tutorial for the *absolute novice* , those new to programming also , is something that also would be worth considering at some point (but I think that would mostly consist of tutorial programs) , but I think that is most likely outside the scope of present discussion.
MrSwiss wrote:What I'd like to promote is: Help on using and understanding the *Reference Manual* (explanation of structure,
the two internal libraries, what they contain, how they relate to the Compiler etc., etc.).
Once you have "digested", the *Help for Reference Manual*, you should be able to use it, without any problems!
This is the reason, that it has to be a integral part of the reference (and not located in, e.g. tutorials).

That is absolutely also a very good possibility if you think that a "New to FreeBASIC" section would make that all too not integral part of the reference...
Anyway , I think that I will sort of back out of this discussion now because I do no longer have any clear overview (not enough insight into FB and the manual) and I will leave the discussion to those who knows more than I.
MrSwiss
Posts: 2585
Joined: Jun 02, 2013 9:27
Location: Switzerland

Re: MULTIKEY missing on page FBWiki : CatPgInput [SOLVED]

Postby MrSwiss » Sep 25, 2017 14:35

@Trinity,

the problems you've had, sorting out the difference between:
  • Syntax
  • Using
would be cleared in: *Help for Reference Manual*, while:
"New to FreeBASIC" section, would be located under "Tutorials".
(this is the current structure, which nobody sees a reason, to change, at the moment ...)
We are mainly discussing *extensions* to the current *content* (not changes to structure,
apart from positioning, of certain links).
Trinity
Posts: 214
Joined: Sep 16, 2017 17:07

Re: MULTIKEY missing on page FBWiki : CatPgInput [SOLVED]

Postby Trinity » Sep 25, 2017 14:39

MrSwiss wrote:We are mainly discussing *extensions* to the current *content* (not changes to structure,
apart from positioning, of certain links).

Thank you :-)

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