MULTIKEY missing on page FBWiki : CatPgInput [SOLVED]

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Trinity
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Re: MULTIKEY missing on page FBWiki : CatPgInput [SOLVED]

Postby Trinity » Sep 24, 2017 13:48

fxm wrote:I don't understand what you propose (the above link is the one of the SCREENEVENT page).

Ah! , sorry , my mistake .
But then please explain to me how that is such a great insult to you ?
Anyway , just because a couple of users got suggestions that relates to the Wiki or because something is debated that ought not be reason for you to get so unhappy. What about all the people that are very happy with and for all that you have done ?
When I have read this forum then people are overflowing with suggestions to each other about how to improve code and discussing how to do the code the best way and I seldom see that people are unhappy with that ! ;-) So what makes you so unhappy if the Wiki is debated ?
Anyway , I started this thread and I wrote the following : "personally I am impressed by how much work that has been done. So from me : thank you :-)" here : viewtopic.php?p=236480#p236480
fxm
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Re: MULTIKEY missing on page FBWiki : CatPgInput [SOLVED]

Postby fxm » Sep 24, 2017 13:56

I am referring only to this sentence:
speedfixer wrote:.....
All the rest of you: just give up trying to get new people into FB if the primary doc maintainer treats people this way.

Ridiculous
Trinity
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Re: MULTIKEY missing on page FBWiki : CatPgInput [SOLVED]

Postby Trinity » Sep 24, 2017 14:22

fxm wrote:I am referring only to this sentence:
speedfixer wrote:.....
All the rest of you: just give up trying to get new people into FB if the primary doc maintainer treats people this way.

Ridiculous

Ah! well , maybe speedfixer is unhappy or had a bad day - anyway - you ought not let one persons dis-satisfaction ruin your day :-)
MrSwiss
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Re: MULTIKEY missing on page FBWiki : CatPgInput [SOLVED]

Postby MrSwiss » Sep 24, 2017 16:24

Trinity wrote:Ah! well , maybe speedfixer is unhappy or had a bad day - ...
Well, speedfixer is not the only one that's unhappy here, with respect to documentation.
I also don't understand the rigid approach of fxm, regarding doc.
Catering only to those that have a "base understanding" of FBC's internals, missing out on "beginners" totally.

For the sake of keeping all happy, I'd suggest a two pronged approach:
  • Reference part of Doc: keep it as is (for advanced use)
  • NEW: add some simplified (=decoupled from any build logic) beginners-entry type of pages ...
I'd like comments from as many FB users as possible, on this issue ...
fxm
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Re: MULTIKEY missing on page FBWiki : CatPgInput [SOLVED]

Postby fxm » Sep 24, 2017 18:32

I think we agree:
- I'm not against new simplified pages for an introductory documentation. They could even find naturally their places in Community Tutorials for example.
- What I am only claiming is to maintain a high technical level for the reference documentation. No leveling from the bottom.
Trinity
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Re: MULTIKEY missing on page FBWiki : CatPgInput [SOLVED]

Postby Trinity » Sep 24, 2017 18:37

MrSwiss wrote:For the sake of keeping all happy, I'd suggest a two pronged approach:
  • Reference part of Doc: keep it as is (for advanced use)
  • NEW: add some simplified (=decoupled from any build logic) beginners-entry type of pages ...
I'd like comments from as many FB users as possible, on this issue ...

Well , I would definitely support that , I mean I have had my share of problems of trying to "wrap my head" around some of the stuff in the documentation and I think that FB ought to be as accessible as possible to the greatest number of users....

However , that said , then I think that that would be a huge piece of work and who is going to do it ? I mean I would perfectly understand if FXM said if you want something new then you will have to find someone else to do it - not to be negative but if you want something done besides what other people can be persuaded to deliver then be prepared that you might have to do it all yourself ( at least in principle if you know what I mean)..

But also accessibility and logic has to be built from the ground up - which is why a guy like me ended up being stuck with the TI-99/4A Extended Basic for so many years as I did. Much of what you need for accessibility is connected with the language itself. Meaning people making developing software these days (a general observation) generally tends to write their RAD software or programming language in a way that makes it extremely advanced to cater to the market of developers that are sitting making software for huge companies or software that got a standard Windows GUI. So for them accessibility is meaningless , at least it looks like that to me.
For programming language accessibility you need to a build a "skeleton" for your programming language that places the maximum power in the hands of the maximum number of users (including beginners) by designing core features to be powerful enough to be of use to the advanced programmer and yet simple enough to use and understand that they can be used by the beginner. And then to make stuff more advanced you must then extend the same logic that were presented to people with respect to learning the skeleton features of the language and also extend the whole programming language logically the along the same lines. By doing so then stuff will be equally accessible and useful to novice and and advanced programmer alike . Because all that the novice learned he can use with little or no change when becoming an advanced programmer and the advancing itself becomes so much easier and the advanced programmer can use even the "standard" "skeleton" features of the language also as part of the basic of his programing...
With respect to documentation that would also mean that the user will receive all information of *logic* necessity presented logically from the manual, meaning that when as basis the user receives all necessary information about "skeleton" features of that language that is *logic* *necessity* and then when something new is presented to the user in the computer language (or in "old" time a piece of hardware were bought that added the need for more documentation or language features) then the user will get all information of *logic* *necessity* presented in a logic manner extended to what has already been given of information.. Meaning , if you have the programming language and the hardware and the manuals that came with the stuff then you can also be sure that you also got all the information needed to use what you got :-)

The above were how I would describe the Texas Instruments approach to the TI-99/4A home computer and it's add-on the TI Extended basic.
However TI I lost in 1982 (?) to the PC market so this is PC programming days where for many reasons things are not as simple as that.
Anyway , though "ideals" may not always be something that one can live up to then one can try to approach an ideal as far as one can or wants to.
How close FB is to the "ideal" that I described that I simply do not know because I am so very new to FB and I got so much to learn but when I discovered FB only very recently I thought it a lot better than most other stuff for more reasons and among those reasons that it seem to me to be accessible to me at least to some extend - how far I do not know yet only time will tell.

So . as for the documentation (Wiki) in question then the "perfect" Wiki for me ought to follow the same ideal of "logic" with respect to presentation as described above...

Have a nice day / evening / night all of you whatever time it is at your place :-)

P.S.
Making a *very accessible* very advanced programming language is not about making a programming language with a lot of commands/functions/whatever but about making the most powerful yet *logical* and simple to use language packed down in as few and as simple to use commands/functions/whatever as humanly possible (it's all about using superior logic from the ground up rather than make it up as we go).
(to refer to how I think *not* to do things I can mention a BASIC language I recently saw that bragged of having "Huge set of internal commands (1400+) to quickly and easily build any application or game" , ref. : main features of PureBasic : http://www.purebasic.com/index.php )
fxm
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Re: MULTIKEY missing on page FBWiki : CatPgInput [SOLVED]

Postby fxm » Sep 24, 2017 19:05

Indeed, I think I am not the right person to be the driving force behind this preliminary documentation.
By cons, I can bring something to the stage of final proofreading of text (by correcting, for example, inaccuracies or errors if they exist).
Trinity
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Re: MULTIKEY missing on page FBWiki : CatPgInput [SOLVED]

Postby Trinity » Sep 24, 2017 19:16

fxm wrote:Indeed, I think I am not the right person to be the driving force behind this preliminary documentation.
By cons, I can bring something to the stage of final proofreading of text (by correcting, for example, inaccuracies or errors if they exist).

I think that would be putting you in charge of being the "technical editor/proof reader" which I think sounds fair :-)

And then the actual work load of writing it could be done by those among those wanting the changes who got the will , the time and the sufficient knowledge...

Personally I neither got the time nor the knowledge to do that much , I got more than enough on my plate at the moment trying to learn FreeBASIC and trying to write software as I acquire the knowledge... (I haven't programmed anything to mention in more than a decade)
I have however considered writing some tutorial programs at some point though far from sure if I will ever get it done (I got more than enough that needs taken care off off line also)
MrSwiss
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Re: MULTIKEY missing on page FBWiki : CatPgInput [SOLVED]

Postby MrSwiss » Sep 24, 2017 19:31

fxm wrote:I'm not against new simplified pages for an introductory documentation. They could even find naturally their places in Community Tutorials for example.
It is only the 'blue' part, on which we seem to differ.
I'm of the opinion, that the simplified pages, should also be in the manual (and not anywhere else).

Reasons for that are:
1) Beginners may not go to tutorials first, but trying to find help, in the reference. (as I did, as a beginner)
2) Most Community Tutorials are so old, they may not even work with FBC 64-bit.
(one of the reasons, causing unnecessary frustration for beginners and, plenty questions in forum!)

Just a very simple example (not necessarily even complete):
A introduction to the needed "know how", to understand the "logic" of structuring the reference first,
then a summary of KeyWord's (from a pure user point of view).
    I/O (as title)
    all contained in CRT (with links to the relevant reference summary page)
    all contained in GFX (with links to the relevant reference summary page)
    Types/Type-Conversions (as title)
    Types (with links to the relevant reference summary page)
    Type Conversions (with links to the relevant reference summary page)
    ... (and so on ...)
Just a initial idea.
Trinity
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Re: MULTIKEY missing on page FBWiki : CatPgInput [SOLVED]

Postby Trinity » Sep 24, 2017 19:43

MrSwiss wrote:Just a initial idea.

You get good ideas MrSwiss :-)
dodicat
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Re: MULTIKEY missing on page FBWiki : CatPgInput [SOLVED]

Postby dodicat » Sep 24, 2017 19:59

Personally I only ever use the .chm help.
It is set up in fbide here.
Also fbide is handy, because if you set the cursor on a keyword and press F1 the help fires up instantly, it really saves the effort of looking up the website.
The SEE ALSO bit at the bottom is the branching off (similar to the web pages).
If I press F1 on INKEY keyword, multikey is at SEE ALSO.
The scan codes are another click away.

IMHO one person (fxm) only should tend to the FBWIKI.

I believe the .chm is updated at each new compiler update.
I see lots of signups in the other thread.
Not really sure what that is all about to be honest.
I was interested in getting the md5 from a string though, and I persevered through a bit of copying and a bit of fiddelling around in another thread.
However, getting the return from md5 to string is proving more difficult.
HELP
Trinity
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Re: MULTIKEY missing on page FBWiki : CatPgInput [SOLVED]

Postby Trinity » Sep 24, 2017 20:05

dodicat wrote:HELP

One ought never attempt to hijack other peoples topics or to derail it off topic ;-)
I do not want to be unfriendly but if you want help with something then the right procedure is to ask in the right topic or make your own.
dodicat
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Re: MULTIKEY missing on page FBWiki : CatPgInput [SOLVED]

Postby dodicat » Sep 24, 2017 20:25

Trinity wrote:
dodicat wrote:HELP

One ought never attempt to hijack other peoples topics or to derail it off topic ;-)
I do not want to be unfriendly but if you want help with something then the right procedure is to ask in the right topic or make your own.


What are you babbling on about Trinity?
fxm
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Re: MULTIKEY missing on page FBWiki : CatPgInput [SOLVED]

Postby fxm » Sep 24, 2017 20:27

dodicat wrote:I believe the .chm is updated at each new compiler update.

In addition, a current fbc version (32-bit and 64-bit) compiled daily (with also the manual .chm) is available at http://users.freebasic-portal.de/stw/builds/
Trinity
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Re: MULTIKEY missing on page FBWiki : CatPgInput [SOLVED]

Postby Trinity » Sep 24, 2017 20:38

dodicat wrote:What are you babbling on about Trinity?

the only way that I can perceive the last part of your post :
However, getting the return from md5 to string is proving more difficult.
HELP

is that you were asking for help "getting the return from md5 to string " .

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