On permanent banning

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deltarho[1859]
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On permanent banning

Post by deltarho[1859] »

Firstly, I do not think that the moderators should be involved in the composition of the Forum Policy; their job is to enforce it. Forum Policy should be in the hands of an administrator. If you look at the Forum Policy you will see that it was published by counting_pine. My understanding is that counting_pine can moderate. He has indicated that he dislikes getting involved in disputes. I respect that.

So we have four moderators:

coderJeff
fxm
Imortis
paul doe

I think that most of us do not agree that a single moderator should be allowed to issue a permanent ban.

If we have a unanimous decision protocol then if one moderator was vehemently against a permanent ban then we would never see one. I believe that under exceptional circumstances, a permanent ban would be the best course of action. With the current team I doubt that two or more are against a permanent ban; if any are.

So, I propose a permanent ban should be issued only if at least three moderators agree.

I think the number agreeing to a ban should be published; without naming them. With the above protocol, that would be three or four. With four, I believe that the membership should accept that. With three, then the membership should be allowed to question the decision. If one or more of the three changed their mind, then the ban should be lifted.

With the recent jj2007 saga, we know that one moderator was for a permanent ban. I have a feeling that one other would have agreed. As for three or more, I am not so sure. I am not a betting man, but if I had to make a bet, then I would reckon that we would probably have seen three for a permanent ban. In any event, the outcome would cause less of an issue than the one we saw with jj2007 where it was felt that one moderator had gone it alone; although it seems that was not the case and some discussion did occur.

Notice that with the above protocol, a moderator-in-chief is not a requirement – with permanent banning, all moderators would have an equal ranking. To my mind, resting on one moderator's shoulders is too much of a burden.

In a nutshell, then, I propose that at least three moderators should agree to a permanent ban before one can be issued.
deltarho[1859]
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Re: On permanent banning

Post by deltarho[1859] »

With regard MrSwiss because 'civil and polite' was not in his vocabulary and probably would never be then a three out of four for a permanent ban in my view would have been a strong possibility. With four out of four the 'Observations' thread should not have started. Well, it might have been with the same author, but it would most likely not run as long as it did.
adeyblue
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Re: On permanent banning

Post by adeyblue »

This is a good idea. But it needs one alteration.
If they say three, then you just accept that they didn't all agree and don't take it as a green light to go bully one of them into doing what you want because this time it was your mate instead of someone you wanted gone.

You should submit some code then you wouldn't need this loophole, you'd already have a direct line to management! I've got one, it's great. You should see the fantastic shirts Imortis wears.
Imortis
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Re: On permanent banning

Post by Imortis »

adeyblue wrote: Feb 26, 2022 3:48 ...
You should submit some code then you wouldn't need this loophole, you'd already have a direct line to management! I've got one, it's great. You should see the fantastic shirts Imortis wears.
What are you talking about?
deltarho[1859]
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Re: On permanent banning

Post by deltarho[1859] »

@adeyblue

I don't understand your second paragraph. Can you come at me from a different angle? I don't understand the third paragraph either, but it is the second one that I am interested in.
deltarho[1859]
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Re: On permanent banning

Post by deltarho[1859] »

A clarification:

When Albert and MrSwiss were banned, my understanding was that coderJeff consulted the other moderators. However, when only coderJeff's name is on the banning order any resulting flack would be aimed at him, and we would not know if any moderator disagreed.

With 4/0 we know that all moderators agreed. With 3/1 and the names not published, we don't know who agreed. In either case, the resulting flack, if any, could not be aimed at just one moderator.
coderJeff
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Re: On permanent banning

Post by coderJeff »

deltarho[1859] wrote: Feb 26, 2022 7:50 When Albert and MrSwiss were banned, my understanding was that coderJeff consulted the other moderators. However, when only coderJeff's name is on the banning order any resulting flack would be aimed at him, and we would not know if any moderator disagreed.
I accepted wearing the target well before now. It would be unfair to blame those helping the project or me directly. Knowledge of who agreed or not is irrelevant. And in the end, if they no longer have interest or can't help for some reason, I'll be left to answer for it all anyway, lest I find myself replaced.

There have been and still are some members that make this forum an unhappy place. The moderators have done the best they can with the tools I've been able to provide. You may remember Richard's view on this: viewtopic.php?t=27366

Last 2 months I spend all my time upgrading and learning the forum software to learn what is actually possible so we can have different options; ideally better options. And unfortunately I have spent zero time on the compiler.
BasicCoder2
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Re: On permanent banning

Post by BasicCoder2 »

@coderJeff
There have been and still are some members that make this forum an unhappy place.
I am sorry to read that. I have always been happy on the forum oblivious no doubt to all the issues others have had. No other member has made me feel unhappy to have been here.

And thank you coderJeff for all the time you have put into the forum upgrade and the FreeBASIC language.
speedfixer
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Re: On permanent banning

Post by speedfixer »

Yes, happy and appreciate all the time any of the moderators have spent on the forums, even when I might disagree.
Managing the forums is not why they arrived at FB.

Folks: this isn't a democracy.

The moderators and admins 'floated' to the top because they were willing to commit.

The rest of us were not. We can all express our opinions, but they are doing the work.

If you are not happy - step up, express, or get out.
Too many rules and THEY will leave, as one other premier admin/developer did recently.

Advice has been given; time to quit this topic and leave them alone.

david
srvaldez
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Re: On permanent banning

Post by srvaldez »

@speedfixer
I agree with you wholeheartedly
deltarho[1859]
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Re: On permanent banning

Post by deltarho[1859] »

coderJeff wrote:I accepted wearing the target well before now.
@ coderJeff

Ok, but one of these days it may get a bit much and one or more events may see you think something like "make me not want to be involved in the forum". This will not be good for you and not good for the forum.

With that in mind, I came up with the above idea. Its primary function is to reduce the burden on you, Jeff.

There is a secondary function. To my mind, it is obvious from the recent jj2007 saga that the current system has weaknesses. I believe that the above goes some way to reduce some weaknesses.
srvaldez wrote:@speedfixer
I agree with you wholeheartedly
I don't.

How many times have we all heard: “Wow that was close” and then somebody chips in with: “Yes, but we survived”.

Instead of leaving things as they are, I take the view that changes should be made to reduce the likelihood of ever saying again: “Wow that was close”. The secondary function of the above is designed to do just that.
speedfixer wrote:Advice has been given; time to quit this topic and leave them alone.
No, it is time to consider changes now whilst the jj2007 saga is still fresh in our minds.

With regard jj2007 I have advised him that the verdict stands and there is nothing more that I can do. Wouldn't it be nice to ban someone without any regrets? With jj2007 going, we do gain something, but we also lose something as well. The same goes for Albert and MrSwiss. With both of them, we gain something with their departure, but we also lose something as well. This is why a permanent ban is a serious issue.

My idea is not rocket science and can be implemented easily.

I rest my case.
paul doe
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Re: On permanent banning

Post by paul doe »

deltarho[1859] wrote: Feb 26, 2022 22:25 ...
With that in mind, I came up with the above idea. Its primary function is to reduce the burden on you, Jeff.
...
He came up with another idea, called 'additional moderators'.
...
There is a secondary function. To my mind, it is obvious from the recent jj2007 saga that the current system has weaknesses. I believe that the above goes some way to reduce some weaknesses.
...
The 'current system', which is used in about every other forum on the planet, has the obnoxious weakness that it doesn't allow us to force moderators to bend to our every whim. That's basically what adeyblue said to you in the above post.
...
srvaldez wrote:@speedfixer
I agree with you wholeheartedly
I don't.

How many times have we all heard: “Wow that was close” and then somebody chips in with: “Yes, but we survived”.
The implications of this can be concerning, if not for the fact that most other members really have nothing to worry about, because they conduct themselves properly (they don't give us any trouble) and exercise a bit of common sense.
...
Instead of leaving things as they are, I take the view that changes should be made to reduce the likelihood of ever saying again: “Wow that was close”. The secondary function of the above is designed to do just that.
...
Do realize that the only one really concerned with that so far is you.

It all boils down to this: moderation is about cooperation, both between mods, and between members and mods. If members aren't willing to cooperate with us when asked for whatever reason (ie 'call them out'), they give us very little choice. And then, they have no one to blame but themselves.
deltarho[1859]
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Re: On permanent banning

Post by deltarho[1859] »

paul doe wrote:He came up with another idea, called 'additional moderators'.
So, he did, but there is no difference between four moderators and 100 moderators if only two of them can get together and issue someone with a permanent ban.
The 'current system', which is used in about every other forum on the planet
Homosexuality used to be a criminal offence in most countries. That is no longer the case.
most other members really have nothing to worry about
Granted. My concern is the small number who can do a lot of damage.
Do realize that the only one really concerned with that so far is you.
I may be the only one who has expressed a concern, but that does not mean that I am the only one concerned. I believe that many members have concerns, but wild horses would not be able to drag them here to express them.
It all boils down to this: moderation is about cooperation, both between mods, and between members and mods. If members aren't willing to cooperate with us when asked for whatever reason (ie 'call them out'), they give us very little choice. And then, they have no one to blame but themselves.
I won't argue with that, and my idea above does not conflict with that.

All that I am doing here is to propose an idea which I believe improves upon what we currently have.

At PowerBASIC they have a poll facility built into the forum software. I do not know whether we have that or not.

If we had and these two questions were put down.

Tick one of the following boxes:

1) I am happy with the current system.
2) I think deltarho's idea has merit.

I reckon that more than half of the respondents would tick box two.

Could I be wrong? Of course, I could, but I don't think so.
angros47
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Re: On permanent banning

Post by angros47 »

I also had an impression: that none of the people who got a permanent ban, here, was banned for something specific they did: they were banned for reiterating a certain unwanted behavior hundreds of times, even after the moderators asked them politely to stop.

So, there is no real risk to ban someone by mistake, for an involuntary slip: people who got banned were fully aware they were doing something wrong, and yet decided to do it.

Also, it didn't really matter about which moderator did the ban, and when: those users would have likely been banned anyway at the next violation
Lost Zergling
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Re: On permanent banning

Post by Lost Zergling »

What should interest us, users, are ethic, ideas and methods rather than put the blame on the decision process.
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